ToneX pedal discussion and demo

[Ron Hogan]

I was asked to do a talk at the NASHVILLE TENNESSEE STEEL GUITAR ASSOCIATION’s past meeting, on the TONEX PEDAL. The in’s and outs.

https://youtu.be/zpqg5iWrRg8?si=6IEVhzThXNb_Hx3n

[Doug Taylor]

Thanks for sharing this Ron!

[David Higginbotham]

Great stuff!

[Michael Lester]

Ron...thanks for recording this.

I've been following Ron for some time in part because he's always on the bleeding edge of technology. He was the first I saw demonstrating the Spark amps - and now the TONEX pedal.

His comments in this video are 100% accurate:

The Tonex process has a very steep initial learning curve that is not, in my mind, intuitive. Nonetheless, once you get past the introductory confusion, it DOES fall into place.

The choices one can make are endless. I am 'experimenting', as Ron says, with a Peavey 112 and a 400, a Quilter, Fender Twins, Fender Princetons and even a Peavey 5150 for pedal steel use. The available amp sets that are still out there number in the many hundreds. The experiment phase is pretty all-consuming, but I am starting to find a settling place with a few that are now 'Saved' for regular use.

Prior to seeing Ron's videos on Tonex, I had never heard the words 'impulse response' in my whole musical life. The Tonex process opened up a very wide door that I never knew existed - and it is amazing.

Ron's tribute to Joe Rogers is on the money. Joe has done the work. I've purchased a couple of amp models and the IR set that Joe created for the Tonex pedal and, frankly, they have changed my music. My Mullen RP D10 has several very attractive new voices now. If a Tonex is in your future you'll want to include Joe's work in your search for your perfect tone.

Again, thank you Ron.

Mike Lester

[Ron Hogan]

I didn’t really speak about the function of it going to FOH.

Because of the IR function for choosing a speaker, it works well using the FOH.

In my case, all my gigs are without a sound man.

[Dale Rottacker]

Ron, I'm still mulling over all the great information you provided in this. One of these days I may give you a call ... this was excellent, eye opening, yet still with questions.

[Ron Hogan]

Ron, I'm still mulling over all the great information you provided in this. One of these days I may give you a call ... this was excellent, eye opening, yet still with questions.

Dale,
I’ll help you all I can. Or….HINDER all I can.

[Ron Hogan]

One thing you shouldn’t do from my experience. When I got my first 5 amp models/presets. I got on stage and started trying a different amp on every song. I overwhelmed myself. I decided after that to just use one amp preset per night. That gave me a chance to dial in an amp and give it it’s true chance to shine or not shine to my liking.

[Larry Dering]

Ron, good demonstration and talk.

[Fred Treece]

Definitely stick with one amp that comes close to the sound you’re looking for, because it’s probably in there.

Ron, you brought up the point in the video presentation, so if I may expand —- do you have any idea what the amp builders and manufacturers actually are saying about these amp profilers? I have often wondered how the intellectual property copyright laws apply, if at all, to the way profiles are acquired and copied and sold.

Digital amp modeling has been around since the late 90’s with Roland COSM and Line 6 POD technology, maybe even before then, I don’t know. I don’t believe there were copyright issues back then because the units were designed to simulate rather than replicate. But don’t tell anybody that I liked the Fender Twin simulation in my Boss GT10 better than the actual Silverface in my music room

[Michael Lester]

Good question Fred.... if I had to guess, I'd expect Tonex to refer to the Harley -Davidson court loss several years ago.

As I recall, Harley sued Yamaha over the sound of the Harley exhaust. Harley lost the suit.

The Tonex argument would be similar I bet.

[Ron Hogan]

You can imagine a company building an amp and selling it for $3,000 then someone copying it on a modeler. Surely it makes the manufacturer raise their eyebrows.

[Wiz Feinberg]

I think that companies like IK Media are protected from law suits because they are mostly supplying presets from out of production amplifiers, or perhaps have obtained licensing to use those amps for modeling. The presets we get from Joe are user-made from actual purchased amplifiers. We buy and sell among ourselves and are removed from the official chain of supply. The amplifier builders aren't threatened because the musicians using modeling pedals don't use amplifiers onstage. Those you do use amps are buying them, whether new or used, like they always have.

I foresee a future where manufacturers may offer a detachable or self-contained modeler for use in their amplifiers. These amps could have a speaker cutoff switch, or a detachable powered head that has a modeled XLR output. This will let them stay in the game as stage gear evolves.

[Michael Lester]

Interesting topic...

I can't imagine that an amp builder could successfully copyright or patent a 'sound'. We all know that the sounds we make are dependent on at least a dozen components. The guitar itself, the pickups, the string type, the bar, the hands and ears of the player - and finally, the amp.

Which part of the tone chain does the amp builder own?

I have entered the Tonex door (and previously the Spark 40 and Spark Live amps). I also own a Fender Twin Tonemaster.

The Tonex system includes from the factory easily a hundred or more independently created Fender Twin 'models'.
Using a Boss Katana amp with the Tonex pedal, I've flipped through dozens of the 'Clean' Twin models.

Frankly, I have discovered Fender Twin tones from a Boss amp that are preferable to what I could actually get from my Tonemaster.

I don't know where this all leads, but it's clear that Ai and digital processing is here to stay.

Ron, made the point in his presentation, that actually acquiring/owning a room full of amps is very expensive and impossible for most of us. Owning the ability to sound like any of those amps is now a reality.

BTW: if you have an interest in exploring the Tonex pedal - be careful about a used unit. Tonex pedals are registered using Serial numbers AND Registration codes from Tonex. You will not be able to access the Tonex software unless the pedal has been 'de-certified' from the previous owner by Tonex. You will then 're-certify' it in your name. I bought a used unit from Guitar Center for $249. Guitar Center did not verify that the unit had been de-certified when they bought it from the previous owner. Tonex would not allow me to download the software until the pedal was de-certified. Ended up returning it and buying a new unit from Sweetwater for $299.

[Fred Treece]

The amplifier builders aren't threatened because the musicians using modeling pedals don't use amplifiers onstage.

Wiz, this is exactly the threat, as I see it.

Which part of the tone chain does the amp builder own?

They don’t “own” any part of it once it is in the user’s possession. But they do sell the amplifier part.

There is an obvious unfairness to the process of profiling physical amplifiers and selling their digitized counterparts for pennies on the dollar, but I certainly don’t deny the talent and time it takes to do the work. Maybe it really is just market economics, I don’t know.

The only thing I can see that may be keeping it out of the courts is the amount of money involved. Would it be worth multi-millions to a plaintiff and their team of lawyers? And who would be the defendant? The case would have to focus on one specific incident that would cover the broad spectrum.

[Wiz Feinberg]

The amplifier builders aren't threatened because the musicians using modeling pedals don't use amplifiers onstage.

Wiz, this is exactly the threat, as I see it.

I agree that the real threat is a growing reduction of amplifier and speaker sales as more bands and venues move to silent stages (sometimes even the drummers use triggered pads and rubberized cymbols to maintain a silent stage).

I didn't choose this transition. I raged against it. The effect was like spitting in the wind! Leave my amp home or leave me home. I also raged against having to use IEMs instead of monitor wedges. Eventually, I chose the path of least resistance so I can keep earning good money playing music.

I've owned a Tonex pedal for about 6 months. I never took it out of the house on a gig and don't know if I ever will. Once my sound leaves my effects pedals, and wings it way to the FOH mixer, I lose control of almost every aspect of it. I may add an effect pedal, tweak my tone controls, increase my volume, run my compressor, or utter incantations. None of this translates out front if the soundman has a compressor or limiter on my channel and has tweaked his tone controls on my channel. Things have changed a lot over the last couple of years. Many people in the audiences ask me what my instrument is called! Some have never seen a steel guitar before!

My issue with the device is that despite purchasing a lot of preset amps (and all the free ones I can find), and playing with the tone controls and frequencies, and enabling or disabling the speaker IRs I also purchased, it never sounds like either of my Nashville amps. My goal was to be able to duplicate the sounds coming from my amps and their speakers in the Tonex, then feeding its output to the FOH. Most of the other stringed instruments in the band are playing through Kemper modelers. They sound incredible and believable. I guess that there really is a big difference between a $300 Tonex and a $1500+ Kemper.

Aside from not being able to dial in a Tonex tone that I'm satisifed with, I sometimes get distortion when I play harder, or use more volume pedal to get the volume up. Some of the Tonex presets are noisy. That's a no-go in our band. I had hiss coming out of one of my analog pedals and the sound guy engaged a noise gate on my channel until we sorted it out. If you've ever tried to play steel through a noise gate you know what a losing proposition that is. Back off your volume pedal and, poof, you're gone from the mix! Everytime we work with a differnt soundman, I have to explain how I play using a volume pedal that moves up and down as I play. They aren't used to that. During soundcheck, the guitars and bass play at their preferred level (through Kempers), until the OK is given. Then it's my turn. Wiz, play! So, I start playing some notes and chords with my volume pedal backed off like I've been doing since 1974. Wiz, I need more signal! So, I turn up the levels on my MXR M-81 preamp pedal/DI box. Then comes the dreaded, give me your maximum volume! So, I floor it. They turn down the pad on my channel. When I back off my volume pedal, I sometimes disappear from the mix. To resolve this I use a Boss compresser as a limiter to reduce my maximum level while allowing me to still have a wide dynamic range with my volume pedal. Things have changed a lot for steel guitar players in modern working bands playing New Country and originals that sound like what's on the radio.

[Fred Treece]

Thanks for sharing your real-world experience on the topic, Wiz. And best of luck going forward.

[Michael Lester]

Take a look at this. At least one amp related manufacturer is ahead of this issue...

https://eminence-digital.com/collection ... UBdFh0Fq30

[Fred Treece]

Take a look at this. At least one amp related manufacturer is ahead of this issue...

[url]https://eminence-digital.com/collections/

This is great. Beats the crap out of going to court over it. And it gives the manufacturer a pretty good hand to play if it does end up there.

Good post, Michael. Very much like Wiz Feinberg’s notion of amps being sold with accompanying digital profiles, or profiler units.

[Michael Lester]

What's lacking here is an iron-clad guarantee that I will sound like Paul Franklin instead of Benjamin Franklin.

[Brett Lanier]

I haven’t used the Tonex out in the real world yet, but have been playing through it a lot at home through both my studio monitors and IEM’s.

From my experience, if you’re thinking you’ll get the same sound you’re used to from your old amp with a capture Joe or someone else made with the same model, you may be disappointed. That said, I’ve found a few amp captures I really like. They just weren’t what I was expecting.

For example, I’ve been playing through Standel custom xv’s for a long time but didn’t like the Buddy Charleton amp… even though I have three of em I love and use all the time. The two captures I really like are the Tweedy Dawg (clean tweed deluxe) and Dr Z Surgical Steel #3.

Another thing I stumbled on was that the pedals you place in front of the Tonex can really mess up the sound, moreso than with a real amp. So experiment with using less, and putting one pedal back in at a time. I really like the Providence pedals in front of my combo amps but discovered that the newer Chrono delay really killed the sound even turned off, whereas the older Providence delay 80’s sounded great in front of the Tonex.

[Fred Treece]

What's lacking here is an iron-clad guarantee that I will sound like Paul Franklin instead of Benjamin Franklin.

Ha!

I think you realize it but I’ll say it anyway-

The point is that with the profiled Franklin rig, you will sound like you would with the actual Franklin rig. And for that, the builder of the actual rig deserves a slice of the pie.

Another thing I stumbled on was that the pedals you place in front of the Tonex can really mess up the sound, moreso than with a real amp.

Brett, the Tonex probably could use an fx loop.

[Brett Lanier]

Another thing I stumbled on was that the pedals you place in front of the Tonex can really mess up the sound, moreso than with a real amp.

Brett, the Tonex probably could use an fx loop.

Maybe so. But you still have the option of placing pedals before or after the Tonex. Just not between the pre and power sections of the amp capture.

I have my reverb after the Tonex... an H90 set to line level on the ins and outs, which is more like putting reverb on a signal at the console, post speaker. That's working really well.

[Robert Parent]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for posting the demo of the ToneX using various presets. It shows there is much more to the ToneX system than just the distortion presets which come from the factory.

Thanks,
Robert

[Jon Jaffe]

I have frequently used the TONEX One pedal in a live situation. There was a steep learning curve, and the tone was acceptable. I have used three or four presets on a stage with both reinforced sound and a stage mix. I could never get the impulse response presets to sound good with the TONEX One pedal itself. I tried numerous Joe Rogers presets and IRs. They sound good in a practice space, but live, I could not tell. I use the TONEX Cab almost exclusively now and enjoy it. The outstanding preset is Match Bro.
The reverb and the delay are substandard, in my opinion, on the TONEX One.
When the Session-LTD 400 pedal became available, I went to that as a preamp. It is easy to dial in a variety of tones that are acceptable in a live situation, whether to my amp or directly to the board. I have all the pedals except my tuner clipped to the right leg of my steel. I use the Echoman for delay and the HOF mini for reverb. For distortion, I use the Sarno Space Dust on the floor before my VP. So my TONEX One is used for resonator effects with the Peavey pedal turned off.
When the Nasville-Session pedal is available, I will try that. Maybe they will have some Dallas for sale. And Sweetwater says that the full amplifiers from PV will be available in April